On the Pat Kenny radio show this morning there was a mini debate between atheist Michael Nugent and a chap called Migeul DeArce of TCD Genetics Institute. The title was 'That This House Believes in God' and Athiest Michael put the valid question to Miguel "When did man get a soul". Now the problem was that Miguel DeArce believes in both creation (God) and evolution and so his answer was predictably low on substance. I have often stated on this blog that anything less than 7 day young earth creationism is inconsistent with Biblical truth (and plain false also by the way). Adam had no ape ancestry and had not only a soul (animals have that) but a spirit which made him, and the missus, different. It would be nice to see Pat get a YEC (Young Earth Creationist) believer to take on an atheist next time and not a theistic evolutionist who, by the way, does not believe in biblical truth. In the beginning God created.. is a trustworthy statement. The Bible talks about a liar but it's not the author.
14 comments:
its sad that people say where christians? and deny God's word. if you dont believe in Genesis why believe in the rest?
Well said Des. If I was the enemy and wanted to discredit a book (the BIble in this case) I'd certainly spread lies about the beginning of the book. People simply put books down and stop reading them if they believe them to be unreliable.
Hi Ant, have you considered hosting a debate on your podcast? I'm happy to defend old earth / evolution. I'm free evenings and weekends and happy to travel in Dublin. I'll even bring biscuits!
(Hi Dessie!)
To add - ever listen to 'Unbelievable?'
It's a show on Premier Christian Radio, and typically involves atheist / Christian debate. There are YEC debates in their archives.
http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable
@Geoff If you were free I'd be glad to do a short interview with you for the Pilgrim Talk podcast. The intention would be to not set up an adversarial debate but to explore differing beliefs on matters of origin and get the listeners (from both sides) to think. It would only take 10-15 minutes and can be done in a city centre cafe if you can get to Dublin for a Saturday afternoon. email me at anthony@helpmyhouse.ie . Cheers. Ant
@Ant, sounds great, I like the idea of the format. I'm free this Saturday if that suits. I'll pop you a mail when I have access to a proper sized keyboard.
G
@Geoff. I'll be at Temple Bar Square tomorrow afternoon (Saturday 19th) and hope to meet you. Come to Temple Bar Square and introduce yourself at 5pm (I wont be hard to find!). We can retire to a quiet hotel lobby and have coffee and interview. Ant
Hi Ant, I'm terribly sorry, I didn't check your comments page last week. I'm out of town next weekend but maybe you could drop me a mail (geoff.lillis gmail.com) if you'll be in Temple Bar any weekend in December?
Well *ahem* I am a chrisitian and I believe and trust in the bible and i believe in evolution (with some parameters) and I think its YOU who are interpreting the bible incorrectly.
@ the space bishop. Would you like to elaborate on this? Is there a part of Genesis which suggests evolution?
I wouldnt put it quite like that. Genesis is teaching us God is creator. I believe that. I don't believe Gen1 is a blueprint for how he did it. I believe it teaches that God is good and created a good world instead of a chaotic one (unlike what was thought by the many religions the Jews knew of at the time)
I believe in a form of theistic evolution because i take the scriptures as inspired by God and hence inerrant. If i were to be a YEC i would need to overcome many problems that the text would bring. Such as the discrepencies between CH1 and CH2. The other people who are implied, Days before the sun etc etc.
A view that takes Ch1 as form of poetry and Gen 2 as form of metaphor means i can still hold to proper interpretation of scripture and still hold to inerrancy.
I want to point out that i do believe Adam and eve existed. I do believe there was a fall. I do believe that there was death before the fall but not as it is now. I do believe in flood but i see it as local. There is much we could debate about but i want to make one point. YEC people like des at the start ask "if you dont believe in Genesis why believe in the rest?" this annoys me greatly. I DO BELIEVE IN GENESIS- i simply believe you are interpreting the text differently -wrongly as it happens. But this debate is a difference of interpretation not one of a lack of faith.
@ The Space Bishop. We must remember that we are in a world saturated with evolution propaganda. With the ensuing "Spiral of Silence"(check Wikipedia for this! as well as The God Journey podcast 6.1.12) few scientists publicly express what they might privately believe (or doubt) for fear of rejection or ridicule by peers. That said I would like to say that Gen1 can hardly be true theologically and untrue scientifically. Death came to all through the fall of man and didn't exist beforehand. Having said all this I believe one can follow Jesus and have different views of Genesis but I would certainly question the detrimental effect it has on reading any book when one discovers that the first chapter is not factually reliable. An unbiased look at empirical evidence always points to a designer, even though the creation is corrupted. Finally...I enjoy reading your comments and thanks for taking the time.
Ant. I do of course believe that there is a designer. And i see that from nature and the way of life. Romans 1 anybody?
You say: "Gen1 can hardly be true theologically and untrue scientifically"
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Could you explain please? I believe all the bible is truth. But to understand what that truth is you have to interpret the bible correctly. I do not believe Gen Ch 1's truth is that God made the world about 6-10,000 years ago in 6 days.
@the space bishop. You are not alone in your belief that the 6 Genesis days were not days as we know them (24 hours) but I differ and believe they were 24 hour days because: 1:When day is mentioned It explicitly says "there was evening and there was morning" Sounds like a "day" to me.2:Old earth science is full of holes when looked at impartially (eg Earth's magnetism, moltencore, thickness of meteroric dust etc. all shout "young earth") 3:Jesus believed it when he said that God made the earth in 6 days and rested the seventh. 4: Death before Adam (in any form) makes a joke out of God's pre-sin warning to Adam and ultimately the purpose of Jesus shedding His blood at Calvery.
In some parts of the world if you question their so called "Prophet" they'll kill you. In the humanistic west, particularly Europe, they will try and intellectually murder you if you dare touch the religious idol of "Evolution". Don't you smell a rat? Again thanks for your comments.
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